microbiome (gut bacteria) and heart disease

[gmdodaro]

I haven't been following this forum for a couple of years, because the vitamin C/lysine/proline protocol didn't seem to help in my case. My coronary calcium score has been increasing by about 100 points per year since 2011. I've been a Pauling and vitamin C enthusiast for more than thirty years. After taking 4-5 grams per day of vitamin C for so long, by this theory, I shouldn't have heart disease.

There was one dramatic exception, and I'm interested in perspectives from people on this forum. You have always helpful in the past even though I couldn't get desired results.

In January of 2018 after reading Dr. Esselstyn, I started a strict vegetarian diet. The results on my coronary calcium scan were amazing, nearly 100 points drop by September of the same year.

That was great, but 10 months later in July of 2019, the score reverted and went back up by 100 points. I've been trying to comprehend what went wrong ever since. The following year, the calcium score increased by 48 points. Not as bad as in the past, so probably the vegetarian diet isn't a complete loss.

Recently, a friend suggested the dramatic improvement could have been the result of better intestinal bacteria, microbiome health, a benefit of eating lots of fresh vegetables. This is a much discussed theory in the literature. So, I looked for anything that might have worked against the intestinal health. I found something that could be critical. Just after I got the improved coronary calcium score, I contracted a urinary tract infection and had to take an antibiotic, ciprofloxacin. This could very well be the factor that cut off my one positive run against the coronary calcium advance.

Does anybody have comments or experience that would be relevant to this situation?

[pamojja]

I haven't been following this forum for a couple of years, because the vitamin C/lysine/proline protocol didn't seem to help in my case. My coronary calcium score has been increasing by about 100 points per year since 2011. I've been a Pauling and vitamin C enthusiast for more than thirty years. After taking 4-5 grams per day of vitamin C for so long, by this theory, I shouldn't have heart disease.

You got fooled by a couple assumptions. The first is that PT would reduce CAC score - this was never systematically tested. Only thing we know for sure it reduced symptoms for many.

The second wrong assumption is that only with a reduction with CAC score the disease would be under control. This assumption has been shown wrong in the group who uses regular CAC scoring the most. The TrackYourPlaque forum under Dr. William Davis. There are indeed some who could reduce their score, but really only a minority. Most only slowed CAC growth below 15%, and thereby it was observed now for many years that such slow-down of growth resulted in no additional adversial cardiovascular events.

Usual growth, even if on statins, is around 30%. Therefore you starting out with a CAC score of 300 in 2011 (as an example), it would have increased to 390 in 2012, the following years 507, 660, 857, 1114, 1448, 1882, 2447, to 3181 now in 2020. Ask your self: with the normal exponential growth of CAC score, would you still be alive today?

On the opposite, even while abandoning PT your yearly CAC score increases, right from the beginning or later on must have been mostly below the magic 15% yearly growth, or you most likely would be death by now.

And yes. gut microbiota is a major factor. Read for example this anecdotal story: https://www.k-vitamins.com/index.php?pa ... festo_Deux

[gmdodaro]

Hello, Pamojja.
Thanks for your reply. I recall our numerous conversations when I was regularly in this discussion. My present cardiologist also says CAC score is not a critical indicator. He's more interested in my LDL particle number, and he suggested I take red yeast rice to bring it down. Today I had a blood draw to see if that is working. Results pending.

I have certainly not abandoned PT. I still take 4-6 grams of vitamin C per day as well as lysine and proline. Also taking vitamin K from the author of the article you linked. I've corresponded with Patrick, and, interestingly enough, he is the friend who suggested my CAC score dropped in 2018 because being a vegetarian improved my microbiome. When I discussed the antibiotic with him, he replied immediately that it would explain why my improved score reverted after taking cyprofloxacin for the UTI.

The good news is that I continue to thrive in spite of recent CAC score of 912. I run and lift weights six days per week. I don't feel like a cardiac event waiting to happen. I solved a problem I was having with atrial fibrillation and tachycardia 2014- 2018. Another coincidence: on the Track your Plaque discussion, I was advised by Dr. Davis that the 10-15 mg of iodine I was taking could be disastrous. I stopped taking iodine for a month, but my atrial fibrillation got much worse, 3-5 episodes per week, 5-15 hours per episode. This was just after I started the vegan diet, and my wife read that vegans can be iodine deficient. I restarted the iodine at increased dosage, and it only took about a week until the a-fib and tachycardia stopped completely. That was March 2018. There has been no recurrence.

If usual growth of CAC is 30%, my increase is sub par. Ten years of 100 points increase per year have not slowed me down, and I had the year of 100 points drop and the most recent year only 48 points increase. My LP-PLA2 score has been a bit of concern. It tends to go above supposed healthy range by 10% -20%.

Good to correspond. I'll look for your current posts for further status.
Best regards,
Mike Dodaro

[pamojja]

[ofonorow]

After taking 4-5 grams per day of vitamin C for so long, by this theory, I shouldn't have heart disease.

I think I remember our conversations over the years? Am I right? Anyway, you are perhaps providing us with knowledge that 4-5 grams may be too low a maintenance dosage. (We are always learning from our member's experience.) My contention, or postulate over the years has been that anyone taking 10 grams of vitamin C daily does not have heart disease.. Some may need more, but this dosage should solve the basic problem (arterial scurvy) for the vast majority.

And we now believe there are ways to "amplify" your vitamin C intake, so taking less does more. I think I understand why ascorbic acid is better than mineral ascorbates, rapid 3 minute entry into the blood stream, but for some reason, Ester-C seems to really be 4 times as effective as ordinary vitamin C. So if you switched your 4-6 grams to Ester-C it would be interesting to know your results. Note, as pamojja states, the Pauling Therapy has not been shown, per se, to work to reduce calcium. Vitamin K is crucial for that benefit.

I disagree with pamojja on the value of a high-fat diet, as the fat "clogs" glucose (and thus some vitamin C receptors) for periods of time. On a low-fat diet, in theory, less vitamin C would be required to do the same job. So I think that your original calcium decline was due to your diet change. And we know the reason babies are given vitamin K shots is because they haven't developed the intestinal flora necessary to make the vitamin. So harming that flora might explain the increase in calcium score as a function of too little vitamin K.

[gmdodaro]

Thanks, Owen. Yes, we have corresponded quite a lot over the years. I've always found great support here. To be completely candid, I don't know how much vitamin C I've taken since I started reading Pauling circa 1983. Now I take about three heaping teaspoons per day, sometimes more, sometimes a bit less. When I've been ill I've taken as much are 5-6 teaspoons per day. I've persisted with lysine and proline. I've always used ascorbic acid.

My wife and I have been reviewing the history of my bloodwork and CAC scans. The calcium trouble started about 2010. I didn't connect the rising CAC score to a root canal tooth that was done a year or two earlier, but the scan in 2011 was 250, and three years later it was 550. The increases during that period were well above 15%.

I was trying everything, including PT, vitamin K, all kinds of vitamins and minerals. The score went up another 100 points the following scan, but then I read Dr. Thomas Levy about root canals and heart disease. I got the root canal tooth removed and things backed off for a year, only 28 points increase. Unfortunately, during the following interval, I took antibiotics for shingles and then for a UTI. This now seems related to resumed increase of about 100 points per year.

In January 2018, I started the vegan diet, after reading Drs. Esselstyn, McDougall, and Ornish. In September the CAC score actually decreased by nearly 100 points. Big success! When the score went back up by 100 points the following year, I was more than a little perplexed. Now it does appear that the antibiotic likely disturbed my gut flora and inflammation resulted in more CAC.

The most recent scan only increased by 48 points, something near 5% at my current CAC level.

One question about vitamin K. I've been taking the high potency koncentratedk for about five years, but with the other interference I don't know if I'm absorbing it. The question is whether I'm getting enough fat in my diet to absorb vitamins K, D, E, and A and other minerals. I take magnesium glycinate and a combined mineral supplement, Remyte. I've seen a product called Blue Ice Royal https://www.rnareset.com/collections/frontpage/products/blue-ice-royal-butter-oil-fermented-cod-liver-oil-blend?variant=742010486803 that is supposed to solve the absorption issue.

[ofonorow]

its hard, almost impossible, not to get some fat in the diet. I reread your original post and I forgot to ask the key question - what is your total cholesterol? 180 mg/dl is ideal. Any higher indicates you require more vitamin C. And yes the root canals would have increased the body's need for vitamin C 'big time.'

You say the Pauling therapy didn't work for you, but a calcium score, per se, per pamojja, is not a measure of the Pauling therapy. Elasticity and the opening of the arteries is the measure. Total cholesterol is a good blood measurement. I posted the story in the Heart Disease section of the CEO of Tower Laboratories. After years on his own product, a friend had developed a new fast CT-SCAN. The scan reported "massive heart disease." Decker checked himself into the hospital for an angio-gram - and the results were great. No Narrowing or obstructions.

How could that be? Apparently, calcium (unlike ordinary atherosclerotic plaque) forms on the OUTSIDE of the pipe.. of the artery, and continuing the story, in one year, he reduced his stiffness and calcium score - merely by adding vitamin K.

[gmdodaro]

Since I started the vegan diet, my total cholesterol has run between 145 and 180. Previously it was 200-215. Apparently my intake of ascorbic acid over the years has not been enough to keep cholesterol under 180 without the vegan diet. I did benefit from what I was taking, 3-4 teaspoons per day. I stopped having colds and flu, which were often 2-3 times per year before I read Pauling in 1983.

As I mentioned, I've never had angina pain or shortness of breath. At age 71, I continue to exercise vigorously 6 days per week. It is possible that my coronary calcium is benign. I'd like to see it go down and I'll continue with the high potency vitamin K. Also increase ascorbic acid dosage.

There is one other bloodwork number of concern. I usually test 10%-15% higher than reference range for LP-PLA2, the fragile plaque score.